Yann Toutant and I explore what it means to work remotely in a time of Covid-19 and what we are taking from it.

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Conversation Highlights

  • Yann Toutant joins me again–our previous conversations are
  • Grappling with compassion
  • The consequences of being forced to work remote without notice
    • It’s difficult if you haven’t done it before
    • It’s even more difficult to start without warning
  • Yann does not see the present version of people working from home (during Covid-19) as the remote work he advocates
    • He believes home is the worst place to work from
    • It’s extremely challenging and should not be confused with regular remote work
    • Additional levels of stress and complexity
  • A review of Yann’s process by which people and companies can go remote
  • Getting rid of the energy that has accumulated at the end of the day
  • Who we are being–explored more in conversation with Alexis Monville and the book The Anatomy of Peace
    • Where are we coming from?
    • A place of War or Peace
  • Who do I want to be as I go through this unique time?
    • It’s here and it’s not going away
    • Where do you want to invest your energy?
    • A great time to be more focused on the being instead of the doing
  • “Who is the person I want to BE today?” instead of “What do I want to DO today?”
  • Using this time to practice being with discomfort
  • If confinement (quarantine) ended tomorrow, what would you do?
    • Would you go back to the same things?
    • What would you like to be different?
    • How will you prepare?
  • Not wanting to leave the boat after Yann’s four weeks confinement crossing the Atlantic
    • New smells
    • Fear
    • Having become comfortable with his internal journey and needing to venture outside again
  • An important reminder and acknowledgment from Yann about the context from which he and John are having this conversation
  • Are we suffering based on what we fear could happen in the future or what is actually happening in the present?
  • “The future is the present, under construction”
  • Possessions vs. experience
  • The increased societal cost of physical distancing
  • Consciously choosing
  • Welcome home to yourself–take advantage of this opportunity (if it fits your situation)
  • The value of doing our own work AND the value and benefit of working with a coach (not trying to do it all on your own)
    • Yann has two coaches
  • The power of silence
    • Clown Syndrome
    • Filling or not filling the space
    • Silence helps the other person speak from their heart instead of their head–tapping into the unconscious

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Credits

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Transcript

This transcript was created automatically and may contain small errors.

John: Today I am talking to Yann Tutan yet again. It would seem that he’s prophetic when it comes to the future of work being remote, being that we’re all remote at this time. So, Yann, what, what new reflections do you have on this idea of remote work? in this time that we find ourselves in, which, which I’ll just kind of give it a date in case people are listening to this way in the future. It’s the middle of April 2020, and Yann is in Amsterdam, I’m in Oregon, and we’re in the midst of, I think, maybe the same or different phases of COVID-19.

Yann: Yeah, it’s good you set the scene. Yeah, here we are again. It’s a public love story starting here. Yes, John, we are going to talk about remote work, and that’s what we have in mind for this session together. And of course, the context of the COVID-19 that you just explained is is a very interesting setting to talk about remote work.

John: Yeah, because I think in your model of remote work, there was no home office. Like, you were very much against the idea, which I did not agree with, which is fine, which always makes, I think, for more interesting discussion. Now there has to be a home office.

Yann: Yeah, so I think I have a lot of people that join me in being against home office at the moment.

John: They might still be against the idea.

Yann: Yeah, yeah. Well, what I witness is that at the moment, John, we are talking billions of people are working remote. And we had discussion last year about the benefit of remote work and all the challenges of implementing remote work in an organization. And in a few days, most of the organizations in the world have had no decision but to put their employees remote. And this is a huge shift in the connection to work that billions of people are experiencing now because they are simply forced to work remote even if they don’t want it. And all the discussions we had in the past were mainly based on voluntary base. I was always inspiring people and managers to think about the component of remote work in their leadership tools and landscape. But now it’s not a question, it’s an obligation. It’s an obligation to stop the propagation of the pandemic, so there’s no choice there. And I think this makes it very different from the setting we were a few months ago. Well,

John: and what jumps out at me the most is When you think in a company or corporate context, there’s planning. Well, hopefully there’s planning. There’s no planning here. One day you’re in an office; the next day, hopefully you took your laptop with you home and you have good enough internet connection.

Yann: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you have kids, and you have kids.

John: Yeah, and your family and dogs and pets, and who knows what?

Yann: Yeah. Yeah, the mother-in-law.

John: Well, and I think this is one of the— as I’ve talked to different people about this current time, often the first question people ask me is like, how are you doing? Are you okay? Kind of almost assuming that I’m not doing okay. And I feel guilty because I am okay. I am doing well. And I think if there’s anything that I haven’t been doing well with It’s having compassion for the people that aren’t doing so well, because this idea of where— and I’m saying that in the context of remote work. I definitely have compassion for people that are sick, don’t get me wrong. But in terms of, um, it’s really hard. I guess I’ve, I’ve seen myself not being as compassionate as I would like to be towards people that are trying to adjust to this new People are calling it the new normal, but I think that’s not even the right phrase. Anyway, I’m not sure where I was going with that, but maybe a question back to you would be, what are you finding most challenging about this?

Yann: Well, the message I want to pass is that this is not remote work, what’s happening now. And people call it, let’s do remote, and let’s go remote. This has nothing to do with remote work. It is just a sanitary measure that is being taken to force people to work from a distance, but without any consideration of what remote work can be. And of course, it has some side positive effects, but first of all, it is very challenging. So the message for the people who listen to this discussion is this is not remote work. And what you are experiencing now, being myself very much knowledgeable about remote work, I dare to say it, what you are experiencing now is very, very difficult and it has nothing to do with remote work. What would you call it then? You know what I think? What’s happening now, it’s like learning to ski on a black piste.

John: And a black piste, for people that— so the translation there would be ski slope. So if you don’t ski at all and you haven’t been to Europe, so a black diamond is like the hardest ski slope. And yeah, when you’re learning to ski, you want to start on the green circles. At least they’re green circles in, in the United States. I don’t know what they are there.

Yann: Yeah, it’s green also. It’s the same in Europe. Yeah, yeah. And, and there’s no black pistes in the US? Is this— this is new?

John: Oh no, there are. They’re, they’re, they’re okay. They call them— yeah, we call them black diamonds. And sometimes there’s like a double diamond, and that’s like— I don’t think I’ve ever been on one. I’ll, I’ll risk a diamond here and there, but I, I’m— I like to cruise. I like flat and flat, straight downhill. I just want to go as fast as I can. I don’t want to do moguls, any of that business. So yeah, this is—

Yann: Okay.

John: So what, so what you’re saying is this is like someone that’s learning to ski for the first time and we’ve just dropped them on a treacherous, lots of bumps. There’s no way that they’re gonna stay up by the time they get to the bottom. And so if they’ve never worked remotely and they’re doing remote work now, um, one, it’s not what you’re saying is one, this isn’t really remote work in the way that you envision it. And 2, it’s going to hurt.

Yann: It’s going to hurt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it should not be associated to remote work. So I am an advocacy, an advocate, sorry, of remote work. And I really, pay a lot of attention to organize or to help organizations to move remote. The first message I want to say is don’t take it as granted. It’s not when the pandemic is over, remote work is not just going on what we do. No, it has to be thought deep and it has to be organized and not at all as It is being happening now. I will take a few examples to illustrate what I’m saying. I always mention that remote work has nothing to do with home office, and I have a lot of enemies when I’m saying that. My definition of remote work is to have a working environment that is a working environment that inspires you. And how to be inspired? I have 4 step process remote work. The first one is be remote in your own office. So go to your office but be remote by changing places, etc., because you learn how to be remote and especially you learn how to be fully digital and have no paper. When you’ve done this step, then you can go to work from a customer or a partner, a supplier. So you still work in an office environment that is close to your own ecosystem, but you, you You change culture, you see, you change company DNA, you see other ways of working, but still it’s related to your own business. And the step number 3 is to work from a coworking space close to your house, not from home, but from a coworking space, because you will join another working community. So you will still be in a working environment and join people who also work, but work completely different than you do. So you learn a lot there. And all the coworking spaces are providing a community approach of their members. So you will be part of workshops, trainings, so you join another community than your company. And the last one is you travel for work, for holidays, and you decide to stay one week extra on this destination, and you work from there, from a coworking space there, and you change in working environment but also culture because you see another coworking space in another country and you can stay longer on your holiday destination. So every evening you can still go to the beach and feel a kind of extension of your holidays. So I’d never mention home office. Why? Because I strongly believe that home is the worst place to work and you have to split your private environment and your working environment. And what is happening now is that people are working from home So imagine, go back to step 1. You’re not even mobile within your company and you always work every day at the same desk and suddenly you have to work from home. The gap is huge because maybe you don’t even have your paper, you’re not digital, so you’re not ready to work paperless. Maybe you don’t have a laptop. So for a big part of people who work in an office, Being able to work remote without going through the different stages I’ve just mentioned. If you’re at stage 1, you don’t have an IT that is ready for it, you don’t have a computer that is ready for it, you don’t have an internet connection that is good enough, and you have your kids around. So what do we do? And your household to manage. Well, You know, there are plenty of tips online on how to work remote now, and I don’t feel like going there.

John: No, please. I mentioned having struggling with compassion. It was like, if I see another article with tips and tricks on how to work from home, uh, yeah, I don’t know what I’m gonna— and, and I should also say too, I’ve done this for like 14, 15 years, so I’ve lost perspective on how hard it was to do, because I was thinking about this before we started talking today, and I want to say I think it took 2, 3, 4, maybe 5 years of doing this at home with a home office before me and my wife got the kinks out of like exactly what that looked like and how it could really work well. Mm-hmm. So I do want to put that out there. But yeah, in terms of like, okay, If we’re not gonna do tips and tricks, because I don’t think tips and tricks— I think my bias against them is that from a coaching perspective, it’s giving advice, and everyone’s situation is different. So—

Yann: Yeah, sure.

John: So I don’t know, I’m curious, where would you suggest people start in their own search for what will make the most sense for them? And then I have some ideas too.

Yann: Yeah, well, the different steps I’ve explained for remote work are not possible today because we are confined. So basically, you are obliged to work from home. There’s no option to work from a coworking space or from a partner or from a holiday destination whatsoever. So the whole strategy that I explained about remote work is now impossible due to confinement. So Basically, people are forced to work from home, but what I disagree is that people say, I work remote, and organizations say, we put our people remote. And I don’t want this experience, what is happening now, to be associated to remote work. What’s happening now, it’s not remote work, it’s working from home in a worse situation and circumstances you can imagine. So, what is today, what people experience today, the message I want to pass through to the people is that, yes, this is tough, yes, this is difficult, yes, this is very challenging, and yes, this is a very aggressive way of experiencing working out of your office if you’ve never done it before. That’s right. I just want to, as you say, compassion. I want to bring compassion to people who have to experience, again, a computer that doesn’t work, an IT connection that doesn’t work, a manager that is not ready to work remote, kids behind, maybe some people sick in the family or nearby. So the stress of people being in hospitals, the stress of finance because people being unemployed. And not having even work to do, or if you have work to do, maybe only for a week or two, and then what’s next? So there are stress factors everywhere, and all this stress, you bring it home. So if I were to give one advice, one tip, is to take the time at the end of the day to get rid of this energy that you have brought in within your house, within your home. And I’m talking about meditation, I’m talking about breathing practice, I’m talking about a routine that you can decide for yourself that is good for you, but there has to be a moment where you take out this energy that is a lot of stress energy, a lot of Frustration, anxiety, and if you keep it inside of you, then there’s no room for enjoying the rest of your life and the evenings and the mornings and the weekends because it will stay and it’s in your home, so it’s in between your walls. So if I had one tip to give is to say we realize that what you’re doing is very difficult and chapeau, and I have a lot of admiration for everybody who’s doing it now and keeping their business running. But protect yourself, protect yourself by having an energy moment, momentum, where you get rid of all those tensions before you continue your day in the same place, in the same place.

John: Otherwise, you’re just gonna carry it forward and it’s just gonna compound and explode and come out in some really ugly way, probably.

Yann: Yeah, or even if not coming out, still it stays in. And if it stays in, there’s no, there’s no room for more, for, for, for the good ones, for the good feelings, because you, you, you, you fill in the space with, with bad feelings.

John: The thing that came to me on this is, and I’ve been saying this in a number of different contexts, but it’s this idea of who we’re being. I recently had a conversation with Alexis Monville on a book called The Anatomy of Peace. And that episode will eventually air. But it’s this idea of, yeah, like, where are we coming from and who are we being? So are we coming at our current circumstances from a place of war or peace? War might be, I hate this, it’s unfair, it stinks. I’m mad about it. Basically hostility versus coming from a place of peace, which is maybe some of the things you’re referring to, groundedness through meditation, breathing, or even asking the question, who do I want to be? As I go through this, because I’m in it. It’s happening. All the all the energy that we exert trying to pretend that it’s not there or fight it does not serve us.

Yann: What you just mentioned is for me what I experience every day. So my my situation is very special because I am a. I am on my own. I have kids, but they don’t live with me, and they are young adults. And my partner, she’s now in Miami, and I’m in Amsterdam, and she’s in Miami to take care of her father. And we don’t know when we’re going to see each other again. So I’m today very much alone because I work remote from home, and I have very little social contact. So, well, we talk about my kids and my son is calling me now. So I hope you still hear. Was the connection still good?

John: I lost you for a second, but we’re back.

Yann: Okay, okay, okay, good. So in my situation, what I see, and I think it can be applied to a lot of people, my situation is that I have noticed a huge drop of distractions, of activities that were normal activities before the crisis and disappear because of the crisis, like going for drinks with some friends, like going to a yoga lesson, like going for a bike tour, like booking a plane ticket for a trip, like blah, blah, everything we do in life. We almost have nothing left of that, which forces us to feel those moments because those moments that were filled, those hours that were filled with those distractions are not filled anymore by those distractions. So if I take a metaphor, the attraction park like Disney World, it suddenly is closed and you’re outside and it’s closed, or maybe you’re in within Disney World but it’s closed, none of the attractions is running. And what do you do? What do you do of your time? Because you don’t have those distractions anymore. And I think this is a great opportunity to be back on the being instead of the doing. So exactly what you mentioned, John, what do I really want for myself as a being? What do I want to be? And what do I want to— what is the person I want to be and not what do I want to do today? It’s becoming a bit philosophical now, but—

John: I love that stuff.

Yann: I will try to illustrate it by a reversed methodology, and it’s to think about the day you are authorized to go for the deconfinement. So let’s imagine that it will not be the case because it’s going to be step by step, but let’s imagine tomorrow you can be deconfined as from tomorrow. What will you do? Will you go back to the cinema every day? Will you go back to buy some clothes? Will you go back to the restaurant, etc.? Like people, a lot of people say, I’m really dying to have this deconfining because then I can leave again. And there I will give you an example of a personal experience that I had about confinement, and it relates to a long sailing trip I did. I did almost 4 weeks sailing trip across the Atlantic, and it’s like confinement because you are on the boat And there’s nothing else. It’s the boat and that’s it for 4 weeks. So it’s like being in your home now and you can’t go out because it’s— yeah, there’s nothing to do outside, of course. So there’s a lot of comparison to this experience I had of 4 weeks on a boat and now this confinement. What I’m going to in this explanation is the arrival, when you arrive at At the shore after four weeks on this boat, what happens? What happened to me is the following: We we arrived in the in Antigua, Antigua de Baruda, and we we arrived that night. It was very strange because you don’t see the land for four weeks, and you expect to see it. I mean, my my picture of arriving was like I’m going to see an island and a. But no, it’s night, so okay, you don’t see, you see only a few lights. And with the boat, we went under the wind of the island. So suddenly the wind has blown through the island towards us. And there’s an explosion of smells. The earth, the animals, the fire, the cars, the pollution. It’s a— it’s— I can’t describe it. It’s like I’ve never smelled before. Because I had forgotten what it is after four weeks. So this first connection to Earth, to humanity, to activity, was this explosion of smells. And it was at night, so you don’t see it; you just feel it. And my first reaction has been fear. My first reaction has been wow! I’m used to this confined place. I’m used to this small world that I understand, and there’s a world out there that I don’t understand anymore, or that is much more complex because. I can’t master it as well as I master this boat. I was not alone on the boat, we were 12 people, but still. So we decided not to moor the boat at night, it was too dangerous, so we went on the anchor and we stayed the night in the bay and then we, in the morning at 6 o’clock, we collect the anchor and we went to dock the boat. And there I’m in the boat, I’m on the boat still, and we have docked. And I’m sitting on a boat and I don’t want to leave the boat. I don’t want to go out because I’ve been so well at ease with myself during these 4 weeks. I’m so comfortable with this closed environment without any distractions, with the comfort of my inner journey, because at the end it’s an inner journey. It’s not only crossing the Atlantic, but also crossing your own Atlantic. And this world outside with all the craziness, all the, you know, the activity, the why people are going there from there, what are they, what their drive, what are they doing it, you know, what’s their motivation, what’s, why are they doing all those things. And I’m on this boat and I’m looking at it, those dogs, those cars, those people passing by with some shopping bags. It’s so difficult, you know, to connect back to this world. And I stayed 4 hours on the boat where most people said to me, when you will arrive on the shore, Yann, after 4 weeks, you will have— yeah, you will go to a bar and have a big party, etc. No, I stayed 4 hours on the boat, I was like, I’m not ready. I’m not ready to go on the shore and to be one of those. People who are running those hectic lives without having time to be on the being and being only on the doing. If I take this example today, I believe that the end of the confinement will look the same as the experience I had when I was on this boat after four weeks at sea. We have to prepare ourselves. to exit this confinement and to face what’s left of this life of doing versus this life of being. And I’m very happy I have this experience a second time in my life. I’m even thinking I will provoke it again because I believe of the mental healthiness of this type of experience. But I invite everyone who’s listening now to think about how they are going to experience this deconfinement And how they are going to be back to a doer instead of a, of a be-er. If it’s— I don’t know if it’s correct in English what I’m saying. I guess you get—

John: No, I, no, I, I totally— yeah, it, no, it translates very well. I guess what I’m wondering is why does it have to change? In other words, I don’t know. I think I’m one of these strange people that That really doesn’t want— I mean, I kind of like— I really like what’s happening right now. I don’t like what’s happening in the world. Let me be really clear. I like what’s happening in my home right now. I, I, I’m enjoying the pace and the reflection and the tension and the— I mean, like, discomfort. I mean, I think that’s something that also popped in my head too, is Just, yeah, instead of like reaching out to soothe myself in some way when I’m feeling uncomfortable, like a few days ago it was Sunday and things were just kind of off-kilter. And I, I had the presence of mind a couple times to just sit in a chair for 10 minutes and do nothing and just be with it. Like, wow, this is really uncomfortable. Wow, today is just kind of not going very— like, it’s just something’s off. I don’t know what it is. And I do believe that taking those moments, even though I didn’t get like a really clear answer as to why, helped make the next day better, made that evening better, and being with it. So I guess I wonder— Hmm. I don’t know. I think my secret hope is that we take some of the things that we’ve learned in this time and we We carry them forward. In other words, the things that used to get us or the things that we would just reflexively do, maybe we aren’t quite so quick to act.

Yann: And there’s one thing I’d like to say at this stage of the conversation is that we are privileged. Some people which are listening might say, “Wow, you guys, you’re nice, but you don’t have someone next to you about to die, so you’re not about to enter into emotional roller coaster and grief and loss of a loved person. You are not losing your job. You don’t have financial problems. You don’t have young kids around that you can’t master anymore, and that you that you.” have difficulties to manage every day. So we are a part of the population, maybe you have a garden, I have a balcony, I can— so we are a part of a population that is entering this experience, this confinement experience, with a lot of luxury. And this enables us to go in this being instead of this doing. I also want to think about the large part of the population that doesn’t have this comfortable situation that we describe now, and I would like to encourage also those people to find the time to also be in the being and not only in the doing, even if the circumstances are not that easy as we explained. Just if you have young kids and you don’t even try to think about meditation, or only when they sleep, you know, but it’s not the same. Yeah. I had young kids, I know what it is about, what it’s all about. So I’d like also to, you know, to also have compassion. We had compassion for remote workers, but I’d like also to have compassion for people who have to face this crisis with full force and with all the negative effect it can have. And I think those people are just thinking, but Yann, you’re crazy, I just want to go out, I want to put my kids at school and I want to go back to work and have a salary and go to the cinema, you know? Mm-hmm. So it’s, I don’t want to make it general what I’m saying. And make what we say a bit more, you know, tinted by the situation we have the luxury to be in. But I think having said all that, I think people which are in the situation we are, which have the opportunity to be more on the being than the doing, can become trendsetters. And then we can show a different way of living when we are going to to exit this situation and offer other people the possibility to discuss. Just have this discussion with your friends, the discussion we have now, just have it with your friends. How are you gonna experience the deconfining? What are you gonna do? I think it’s very interesting to have this discussion with friends and just have a reflection on how people picture their life. After what has happened.

John: I really love how you brought us back, and I really love how you spoke to people that are not having the same experience that we are. And I also— yeah, it’s a great reminder that, like, I, I could get the virus tomorrow, or maybe I already have. Like, who knows? Like, I’m I think there’s a tension here between— and, and this is where I was, um, initially really struggling with compassion— was I was seeing so much suffering around me that was based on a fear of the future and not of the present. So I think what’s super, super important is, yes, in Yann and John’s present, in this moment that we’re having this conversation, we are in a current state or a current way of being.

Yann: Yeah.

John: It could change. It could totally change. It could change, like, so bad that I would never be able to talk to you again. Like, who knows? What I am seeing for myself, though, in this time is it’s a choice. To— and it’s not always an easy choice. I want to be clear about that too, because I know you’ll keep me honest— is that in this very moment, things— in this very moment, I am good. I’m okay. I’m great. In the next moment, an hour from now, I will probably be the same. I will, or I’ll have some type of challenge. A week from now, probably the same. A month from now, I don’t know. Beyond that, who knows? And I guess what I’m playing with here is just for myself, I’ve just made a very concentrated effort/choice to be with what’s in the present in front of me. My mind does wander to start to worry about what could happen. And yet it hasn’t happened. It’s right now. So I don’t know. What do you? What do you hear from that? You don’t even have to agree with any of it, but that just came to me.

Yann: Well, the I like the saying, which is the the future. Is present under construction. And I like this because when people start to be worried about the future and not enjoying the present, and I am one of them, I worry a lot about the future, so I have a lot of work to do on me there. When you worry about the future, you waste your present because the future that’s You have you have put so much effort to design your future that doesn’t meet your worries, that when it’s present, you don’t enjoy it because you think about the next worries. So you spend your time building the road on which you’re going to be driving, but you never realize that you drive on a nice road. And basically, this is what you say here. And again, this hectic life we have, we had again still a few months ago, you know, think about, make the connection between Black Friday and COVID-19. Try to think about how can those 2 worlds be together. Black Friday, you know, people running into stores, queuing all night in front of stores, To be the proud owner of the latest television or the latest bag or whatsoever. Just think about it versus COVID-19 we are now. It is so clashing, it is so, you know, so do we want to go back to this type of, to this way of living, or do we want to be, and then if we are, then we are not worried about the future and then we are not worried about being in the coming 2 years being the owner of a bigger car and a bigger house and having more money on your bank account. This is, you know, I’m back to one of the topics we had together in the past, it’s a possession versus impressions or experiences. So what do you want? Do you want to possess a lot but have little experience? Or do you want to own very little and have amazing experience with yourself? with your inner journey. That’s a choice that can be done now. It’s a big window of opportunity to make this choice. You want positions or do you want experiences?

John: What’s also coming to me is also the idea of attachment. So in other words, as I was saying, you know, hey, I, at least in these current moments that I’ve had recently, I don’t want these to end. If I get too attached to those, Yeah, I really do like this idea of, okay, eventually there are going to be some changes. So how will I be with those changes? How will I be with when this period of time ends and becomes something else?

Yann: Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s, again, having said what we said and all the disclaimers I said about people who are in difficult times, It’s globally a great opportunity to keep the economy going and to still consuming because I think consuming is very important for the economy. But why not consuming experiences and impressions instead of consuming goods? I mean, this is the shift that has to happen. The economy has to stay and the growth we are used to is the model we are based on, so to reshuffle this whole model in 2 months’ time, it’s impossible. But to rethink the model by saying I prefer to invest my money into experiences instead of possessions, that’s a completely different story. I have one fear I’d like to share about the future, talking about the fears of the future and talking about the deconfining. And I’ll give you one example among thousands of potential impacts of this deconfining. I was today in a call where I had the opportunity to discuss the challenge of public transport when we will start the deconfining. And here in Holland, what is the government asking to every organization, business, is to enter into what we call the 1.5-meter economy. Maybe you heard about it already in the US, but the principle is to say you need to have social distancing even when we will start the deconfining. We need social distancing to avoid the propagation of the epidemic, the spreading of the economy, of the pandemic, sorry. So 1.5 meters between the people. So now what the Dutch government is asking to every restaurant company organization is to organize their business business in a way that people will be 1.5 meters from each other, and they call it the 1.5-meter economy. Now if we go to public transport, what does it mean? It means as simple as this, that if you want to respect that, only in Amsterdam— well, in Amsterdam because it’s quite a dense population— the number of Public transport available has to be multiplied by nine.

John: Wow!

Yann: So to to move the same amount of population in the same time frame, if people are 1.5 meters from each other, you need nine more trains than today. Yeah, as you say, wow! So it’s impossible. It will never be possible. Meaning that people will want to move. So how are people going to move? People will go back to individual transport. What is individual transport? In Amsterdam, a lot of bicycles, but in most of the cities, the car. So all the people that were used to use public transport, a large part of those people are going to move back to using their car. And using the car means more people on the road, more pollution, more traffic, more accidents, etc. And I see it as a fear for— it’s personally, it’s a fear because we all see Oh, look, this is great. There is much less pollution thanks to COVID-19. The sky is blue again. The wild animals are entering the cities. Yeah, as soon as it’s finished, billions of cars will be on the road because people will want to go to their work. Again, remote work. People will want to go to their office. And then it will create a massive move of people that will be not organized by public transport, but individually. And to me, this is a very bad side effect of the deconfining, and I hope politicians will think about it because it has to be organized in a way that this is not happening. And remote work, well organized this time, can be a solution for that. And it’s— I’m taking a very little example of all the consequences we don’t picture today of the deconfining. So I’m inviting the audience to think really deeply about what do they want to be as a person once the deconfining will be over. And do they want to go back to the life they had before, or do they want to take this experience as a transition in their relation to themselves, to their ecosystem, to the economy, to the environment? to all the interactions a human being can have. And this is where I see it’s a great window of opportunity.

John: That’s beautiful. And I also hear they’re, uh, trans— like, um, it’s a process. So right now they’re, right now they’re talking about, quote, opening the economy in the United States. Like it’s the, you know, it’s like, it’s the opening of the stock market. They’re going to push a button and like suddenly everything’s going to be Like back on again, which I, I don’t see how that’s gonna happen. But what I love about what you’re saying and what’s coming to me is this: in the same way that throwing someone onto a black diamond and saying ski to the bottom is— it’s not gonna work, it’s not gonna be a positive experience, and you’re never gonna want to ski again. In the same way, the abrupt way that remote work has begun for many people Not very pleasant. That there’s— hmm, maybe it’s about, I don’t know, embracing the path or the journey or the progression or the process versus going for the immediate outcome. So maybe it is driving to work for a few days, but then finding a different way, or Establishing some type of you know remote work habit versus I’m just going to drive for the next ten years and never take public transportation again.

Yann: It requires some discipline. It requires to to listen to the inner compass. It requires to listen to your intuition, and I think it requires to. To have quite some coronas, as we say in Spanish.

John: To

Yann: maybe you can do a beep if you want. To to dare to. Change the patterns, and that’s that’s that’s not easy because there’s pressure of the employer, there’s pressure of the family, of the friends, etc. Again, I think this confining is also an opportunity to find your own way and your own path, and to discover your inner compass, and then to follow it instead of you know reacting to. to different impulses you can have from your environment. People calling you, you’re tired and you just want to be at home, and then you get a call for a drink and then you just go for it without thinking. It’s a very basic example I’m taking now, but a lot of people are not able to resist that and they prefer being social and being present and showing their face instead of saying, no, I’m going to stay home. And it’s Friday evening. Yeah, it’s party time. No, but I prefer to stay home and to do meditation. Okay. This is an example, I think, of where people will understand themselves better in those times because there are less distractions.

John: Yeah, and it gets back to the idea of clearly choosing something too. Like I am choosing to stay home because I don’t want to go for drinks versus well I’ll go because they wouldn’t understand if I stayed home and there would be some bad story about me. So it no it’s like yeah choosing choosing

Yann: yeah because it’s Friday so Friday you drink okay but where what if you didn’t which contract Where did you sign?

John: Where did you sign for it? Yeah, where did you sign the agreement that says you have to drink every Friday? Well, thanks again, Yann. Any other thoughts or disclaimers? Or I really appreciated how you kept bringing that to light in terms of being very clear about the context that we’re coming from and And just the reminder and awareness of that. So any last thoughts?

Yann: Well, I think the big conclusion of that is I feel myself this, you know, this welcome home, welcome to yourself. And don’t Don’t miss this disappointment. That’s a great opportunity we have in our lives to meet with ourselves and to make some agreement with ourselves of a different approach of life that will be, I think, one of the most beautiful outcomes of this terrible and very, very sad time for humanity.

John: And I would add that if you would like some help with that, sometimes it’s really, really hard to do this work on your own. So I don’t do this work on my own. I have a coach. And I would just put it out there.

Yann: I have 2 even.

John: Awesome. So I would put it out there. If you want help with this or you want to have a conversation with me, you know where to find me. If you want to have a conversation with Yann, I don’t know if he would. I’m assuming he would do that with you. I’ll have his connection information on LinkedIn on the notes for this episode. So yeah, don’t try to do this alone. Like maybe that’s one of the best takeaways of this whole thing is yes, there’s a lot of try

Yann: this at home.

John: Yeah.

Yann: Oh yes, try this at home.

John: No. Well, there is a yeah, there is a lot of. solitude, and there is a lot of doing this on your own right now. And I think there’s huge value in doing a lot of it alone. And huge— and I can’t do it on my own. And it sounds like you can’t either. So what a great way to close.

Yann: No, I have, I have, I have 2 coaches. I had a coaching session again today. I had one tomorrow. I have one tomorrow. I mean, it’s, uh, especially in those times, I, I’m, I’m really much, um, You know, challenged by the situation. And I have increased the coaching session frequency.

John: Really? So did I.

Yann: Yeah, of course.

John: I did the same thing. I totally re— oh my God, really? No. Yes, I, I was supposed to be on like this 6-week break. And I— and we were supposed to do— we’re supposed to meet in person, and we can’t meet in person. So we rejiggered our whole thing so that we’re meeting on a more regular basis, because my thought was, it sounds like you’re having the same one, was I want to make the absolute most of this. And if I try to make the absolute most of this on my own, it is not going to go well. So why wouldn’t I just go to the person that’s, that’s totally helping me and meet more often? Oh, man.

Yann: Hey, I, what I mentioned a few minutes ago, instead of spending money in positions, you spend it in impressions. Well, I invest a lot of money in coaching because it’s This is something nobody will take me back. It’s in me. And so instead of having a nice car that will be nice for 3 years and then it’s gone, this coaching session makes me, I think, more at ease with me and more at ease with my environment and bring me more awareness. And this is forever.

John: And you, and you can spread it to others. That’s my experience too.

Yann: And you can spread it together.

John: Yeah.

Yann: So the money you’re not putting in restaurants, the money you’re not putting in cinemas, the money you’re not putting in going out, On holidays, put it in personal development. And well, I have one disclaimer. It is addictive. That’s the problem.

John: That is, yes. Yes. I hadn’t thought of it that way. Yeah. So I don’t

Yann: want to promote addictive,

John: you know, addiction to self-improve.

Yann: Yeah, that’s a good one. Thank you, John.

John: Thank you. Yeah, be well.

Yann: Yes, take care of yourself.

John: Alright, the music will play. Well, we did it again.

Yann: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lovely conversation. Yeah, yeah. Very nice. I I really appreciate your silence, you know. The silence that you dare to leave, you know, like 2, 3, 4 seconds. It’s really good.

John: Oh, I’m glad. No. And that’s, well, it’s you. I remember you saying that last time and it’s like, that’s, if you have ideas on this, I’d be, I’d love them. Like, I feel like that’s one of my secret weapons, not a weapon, but when I coach, like, so many amazing things happen when I just, you know, I’m listening from my heart and I’m just being. And it’s like, how do you, how do you create a website that says, you know, come coach with me, I won’t say a word, but yet, you know, you’ll, you’ll get what you need and be changed?

Yann: Yeah, that’s the best one. You know, I have a, I have an explanation for that. I call it the, the clown syndrome. Maybe I explained to you already.

John: No.

Yann: The clown syndrome. So when you are at a circus, there are clowns. So clowns have been invented in a circus. Do you know why clowns are for? What’s the purpose of clowns?

John: To make you laugh?

Yann: Yeah, but if you think about clowns, why, at which moment do they step in in a circus performance?

John: Oh, during the transitions?

Yann: Yes.

John: They fill the space.

Yann: The clowns are here to fill the space. Exactly. And they make stupid things to fill the space because the space needed to be filled, but they didn’t have any great performance, so they decided to put some clowns to do it and to do some stupid things. So the clown syndrome is the same. If you ask a question to someone You leave this person give your answer, so that’s the performance, and then you leave a gap, an empty space, then the person goes to the clown syndrome. And what is the clown syndrome? Clown syndrome is that the person will start to talk not from his brain but from his heart, because there is the stress of the silence that needs to be fulfilled. So the person is not thinking about what he’s saying, it comes directly from the unconscious. So the juice you get, the best juice, the juicy part of the discussion, you have it during what is coming after the silence. And this is something I use myself when I do recruitments, for example. When I ask a question, of course, the first answer I have is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then I hear the silence and I have the real answer.

John: Yeah, yeah. And

Yann: you do it well. I mean, I see myself, you know, going into silence and feeling the need of the uncomfort of the silence and thinking, oh, the person listening will think maybe the connection is lost, or, you know, so I need to fill this gap because by respect for the person who’s listening. Otherwise, we’re going to lose the audience, they’re going to change channel, you know, or whatsoever. I feel it when you leave those gaps. So So that’s good, it works.

John: Mm-hmm. What’s funny is it’s not intentional. It’s— yeah, it just— yeah, I don’t know. Well, thank you. I appreciate your acknowledgement and appreciation of that too. That means a lot.

Yann: Alright,

John: well, until next time.

Yann: Okay. Yes, you go to the next meeting. Yes.

John: Thanks for listening to The John Poelstra Show. Notes, links, and all that other good stuff for this episode are at johnpoelstra.com/podcast. Send your questions, ideas, or a simple hello to REDACTED. Want to stay up to date on new episodes and receive notifications of upcoming events? Register your email address at johnpoelstra.com/updates.