Brad Solomon and I set off on another unplanned exploration into what’s present to us in the moment, including sharing childhood pictures of ourselves.

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This is a rebroadcast of a conversation I had with Brad Solomon, Founder and CEO of the CTG Group in the UK on his podcast called The Lockdown Sessions.

The Lockdown Sessions is a weekly podcast, hosted by Brad that explores reflections on a broad range of topics including self awareness, self management, learning and development issues and personal growth.

For this conversation there is also a video on Youtube.  If that’s your jam and if you want to see what I looked like when I was four years-old (and many years later in present times) you can see it there.

We keep coming back to The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom by Don Miguel Ruiz, but this episode is definitely lighter on the book references the our previous conversation.

Conversation Highlights

  • Coaching from an un-nuanced and unfiltered place
  • Our word creates–what are you creating with it?
  • Is being late to meetings your “brand?”
  • Being impeccable with our word or cleaning it up
  • We cannot bring meaning to a situation for another person (only they can)
    • Even though we think we can
    • Even though we try
  • Do you re-play and re-create conversations in your head? How does it benefit you?
  • Changing situations by how you are being and who you bring to the conversation versus saying the perfect thing you figured out from a past interaction
  • Brad likes to ask
    • What did I want to happen?
      • Can I envision it?
      • Do I have clarity of the purpose?
    • How did I get in the way?
      • Owning my role in the conversation
  • How we get in our own way
  • Embracing our inner 4-year-old
  • Seeing the 4-year-old in others as a way of connection and compassion
  • Ways of asking permission to say hard things and designing agreements
  • Listening to our intuition
    • Saying it out loud even if we aren’t sure
    • Unattached to interpreting it correctly
    • Cleaning up what doesn’t work
  • John wonders when the “lock down sessions” will end and the “freedom sessions” will begin

Credits

All songs licensed under Creative Commons

Transcript

This transcript was created automatically and may contain small errors.

John: Today, I’m rebroadcasting yet another conversation I had with Brad Solomon, founder and CEO of the CTG Group, from his podcast called The Lockdown Sessions. We continue to talk about whatever is in front of us, and today I got my act together and was actually on video. So if YouTube and video is more your jam than audio, I’ll link to the YouTube version of this in the notes. And if you want to see what my 4-year-old self looks like, we share childhood pictures, which just again evolved out of the conversation. Those are only available on YouTube as well. And we keep coming back to the book, The Four Agreements. So For some reason, that book is likely in my future. I’ve read a tiny bit of it, but I’ve resisted up until now. So hope you enjoy it.

Brad: John Poelstra, you’re back for a 3rd time.

John: Yeah, what have I signed up for here?

Brad: Welcome to the Lockdown Sessions, another scintillating episode ready to fly off the publishing Roadmap of Apple Mac. John, welcome. How are you, sir?

John: I’m well. You know, you really— what were you saying in the description for the last one? Something about divination? I don’t remember talking about divination.

Brad: Yeah, we did. You forget?

John: We did?

Brad: Yeah,

John: that’s not really my thing.

Brad: You want to listen to it back? Well, we were talking about how do you make decisions and should it, you know, yes or no, and we were talking about divination and, you know, How do you make that decision of what to do? And you were saying you go with the moment, you feel that intuition, you feel, you know, the full spectrum of life. And, uh, it was like, wow, how did we get to divination? From books, quite honestly, from books. Well, and we were joking just before, right, because, uh, we stirred a few, uh, bees’ nests.

John: Yes. Yeah.

Brad: With that book chat. So I thought we’d come back and talk about books again. Look, I’ve been, I’ve been thinking actually since we last chatted about nuanced communication during this period. So I’m looking at kind of observations during lockdown where people are at home. And also now that we kind of, we’ve opened up communities and societies and then we’re closing them back down and we’re closing elements of society down. Today in the UK, you know, they announced from Friday, it’s going to be illegal, a criminal act, to meet with more than 6 people. Right, I know. Yeah, your face says it all.

John: A criminal act.

Brad: Yeah.

John: Wow.

Brad: Yeah. So I don’t know how I feel about governments making those kind of rules, but it made me think about how their argument is that the rules are too confusing, and it started me thinking about communication and nuanced communication. And as coaches, I think our language and our communication is very nuanced. And I wondered if you’d noticed in some of your conversations during this period with clients, with friends, peers, colleagues, have you seen a shift in the way people communicate? Is there more of a nuance to the way people need to communicate when we’re all living so physically distanced from each other. And I thought maybe we could unpack that a little bit and, and see where it took us.

John: I don’t know, I might just kill the topic. I

Brad: don’t know about divination, if you like.

John: I don’t, uh, it’s interesting. I don’t— I would almost flip it around. as a coach, I don’t— I’m listening for the nuance in the client. I’m listening for the nuance in their language and the words that they’re using. And I’m doing the opposite with myself. Like, the more unfiltered I am, the more just John-ness I just let fly. Now granted, I have a higher chance of like offending someone or going the wrong place, But the higher, the higher of the flame of John that I turn up, the more stuff we potentially stir up in the client that I’m then listening to. But I don’t know. Yeah, when I coach, even as I’m talking to you, like, I feel like that’s why our conversations just kind of flow, because I’m trying as much as possible to not filter, to just— yeah, and ignore your dog.

Brad: My dog decided he likes what you’re saying, um, and he’s come to join. Hi, Rocky! We are working here, you know. It’s not going to look too good on the audio. I hear what you’re saying. I like the idea of John-ness coming through as well. And it’s interesting when you say it because— and that’s why I think it’s a— it’s a— for me, it’s a cool topic because like you, when, when I’m coaching, I don’t filter necessarily what I’m going to say because I want it to be as authentic and intuitive as possible. But I do know that I’ve received feedback before when I give feedback or ask questions where people have described it as, it’s like getting a bunch of flowers followed by a brick.

John: Well, that’s better than the crap sandwich.

Brad: Yeah, there’s no middle bit with me, right? It’s just, here’s the message, let’s talk about it. And, and I was, you know, I, I wonder, because there is such power in, in words. So for example, and what really got me thinking about it, I saw a post this week on social media, guy representing himself as a career coach. And when I checked out his profile, you know, he’s a well-tenured individual, 30 years experience as a career coach. And the opening line of his post was If your job is under threat, you’ve got to get back into the office and have face time with your managers, or they’re not going to choose you and make you redundant. Right. Um, yeah, your snigger kind of tells me we’re kind of aligned. Well,

John: I was remote for so many years that the whole idea of face time and— yeah.

Brad: Well, surely we live in a world where output, contribution, and value is more important than face time. Having said that, I noticed that you know there were like 900 likes, 1,700 comments. You know, and I thought maybe he was just trying to engage people. You know, he’s he’s being a little bit off-center deliberately. So I felt compelled to respond, saying you know I I feel as though what you’re suggesting denies people so much. Because what about their safety? Are we really working in a world of such archaic organizations that the manager’s bias won’t get called out because he sees you in the office till 7 o’clock in the evening? Come on, really? It’s 2020. And he wrote back that he’d worked with thousands of executives and had hundreds of, you know, references. And I wrote back and said, look, I’m not doubting your experience. I’m questioning the power of your word as a coach. Actually, our words have power. They have meaning. There’s a responsibility with that, no? And, and whether you’re unfiltered or not, there’s a nuance to your unfiltered style as much as there is a nuance when you’re filtering it.

John: Yes. Okay, I take this in a completely different direction then, in the sense of I believe that our word creates.

Brad: Okay,

John: our word, our word. And I’m stealing from The Four Agreements, which I sort of started reading. What’s so funny, I had someone that I was kind of coaching on the side, and he’s like, yeah, I don’t want to finish The Four Agreements because then I have to follow

Brad: them. No, because he can read The Fifth Agreement, John.

John: Oh, you were telling me about that.

Brad: Yeah, you can read The Fifth Agreement, no problem.

John: But no, this, this, and this comes up in my client work. With— okay, so yeah, on the one hand, so at the beginning I’m completely disagreeing with you and now I’m completely agreeing with you.

Brad: That’s okay, people do that all the time.

John: So no, but in the sense of, yes, I believe our word creates and I believe our word creates at the very smallest level. So, and sometimes I get in— I get it, I lock horns with people on this in particularly coaching where it’s like, yeah, I said I would do that and I intended to, but I didn’t quite get it done. But the fact that I intended to means that it was good enough because, I mean, come on, we’re not perfect.

Brad: Right.

John: Which, which kind of starts setting off alarms in my mind of like, okay, but how many of these like almost closed loops do you have in your life And how’s that working out? So you say to your team, we’re going to meet at 5 or 4 or whatever. But you kind of never quite do. Does your word have as much power as it could? Does— when you say 5, does it really mean 5, or does it mean like, as soon as we’re all assembled and we feel like it? Like, what— like, how much precision and how much power is there behind what you say that you’re going to do?

Brad: Right, because you’re creating a whole story about why you haven’t done something. And I was brought up by a mum and dad who highlighted regularly that the road to hell was paved with good intention, um, which it is. But what you’re hearing there is a shedload of cognitive dissonance, um, and people justifying their actions to themselves. And you’re right, our words create. The stories that we live.

John: And that’s not to say that you can’t clean it up. To me, there’s a huge difference between, yes, we’ll meet at 3, and at 3:01, John, I totally dropped the ball. I, I just did not manage my time well today, and I’m going to be late. I’m sorry. That’s a totally different way of owning the situation and cleaning it up versus, well, come on, don’t hold me to such a high standard.

Brad: Yeah, you know, that’s the 3rd meeting today I’ve been late to. But you have that all the time, right? You have people who are constantly running late to every meeting. In fact, that’s part of their brand. Oh well, he’s— he’ll, he’ll be here, don’t worry.

John: Right.

Brad: And in some cultures, I know from attending meetings with Japanese clients, until the leader is there, the meeting doesn’t start. And it’s really interesting because there, the leader is there at 5 o’clock. And then the meeting starts, and if you’re not there, there are apologies to be made.

John: Well, and in terms of what you’re creating, it’s like over time you’re creating distrust. You’re creating a sense of, I can’t totally count on this person. Yeah, I could count on them if the building was burning and the things are going to burn to the ground. I could probably really count on them then. But in the smaller thing, like, you just— but then you’re just like, well, where can I count on you?

Brad: And this to me goes right to the core of why I think communication is so powerful and nuanced, because you’re talking for me there about how reliable is that person if I can’t trust their word. And I don’t know if it’s a simple mantra, but— and I don’t know who said it to me— say what you mean, mean what you say, don’t be mean with what you say. Say what you mean and mean what you say. And I love that. It’s that, you know, we’re talking about Don Miguel Ruiz and his Four Agreements. It is about being authentic with your word. And I love that concept because what it does is it enables me to audit myself when I say something. And actually, it means I can also pull it back. I can say something out loud and go, actually, John, I just heard myself say that. That’s just not true. I’m not gonna— I’m gonna own the fact that that’s, that’s BS. I’m sorry, I didn’t think that through. Let me rewind. start again. And actually, if you’re in the middle of a, you know, an argument with somebody, a partner, a loved one, a sibling, I think it’s interesting that we don’t always let people take words back, do we? We hold people to their words. You said this. It’s like, well, I didn’t mean that. Yeah, but you said it. And I, I just wonder if when we say things in that moment, if we have this nuance in our communication, we would be entitled to say John, I just heard, I didn’t mean that at all. And you would forget it in that moment. You say, okay, Brad, if you didn’t mean it, what do you mean? And I’ll tell you what I mean, and we’ll move the conversation on. But how many conversations get stuck because people don’t say what they mean or mean what they say?

John: I would come at it a different way and say that that other person is bringing meaning I can’t bring meaning to what you’re saying. Only you, Brad, can tell me the true meaning behind your words. But when I decide what your words mean for you, to me, that’s a place you can’t really go.

Brad: But people visit that place

John: every day, all

Brad: day, every day.

John: Well, no, I do too. I do too. My wife says something and I get hooked and I’m like, yeah, because you meant this,

Brad: right?

John: And she’s like, well, no, I didn’t. I’m like, well, surely you must have meant that. And then we just go around in circles until I like grow up enough to realize what I’m doing.

Brad: I remember years ago being at my— he won’t thank me for this— being at my brother’s house. and he’s got 4 girls, and 3 of them were on his back leg and shoulder, you know, as he walked up the stairs. And his wife had clearly been doing the washing and left it at the bottom of the stairs, you know, to take up on the next trip. As my brother was like walking up the stairs with 3 girls hanging from him, his wife came around the corner from the kitchen and said, Did you not see the washing there? Because my brother had deliberately stepped over it to not, like, fall on it with 3 girls on him, right? So of course he dropped the girls, spun round, and immediately said, well, you know, I can’t do everything like this. So when she responded, everything? You think you do everything? Who took the rubbish out this morning? And I couldn’t believe where they had got to, from a beautiful moment of a dad playing with his 3 girls to a ridiculous debate about who takes the rubbish out.

John: Well, yes, and, and what I hear in there is I hear taking it personally and getting defensive, which again, it’s applying the meaning that the other person had, which I just— yeah.

Brad: I think we’re recommending before— I think I’m going to put a little subheading to the, uh, podcast this week saying The Four Agreements. Don’t take things personally, be true with your word. We’ve done the first 2.

John: Really? Okay.

Brad: And we’ve even done the third one, which is making assumptions, um, which is the third agreement. Um, tell me, John, when you’re in your own headspace and you, you find yourself reflecting, do you, do you consider, do you play back conversations and find yourself kind of almost editing what you could have said, what you would have said, what you should have said? And then when you find yourself in future situations, that editing experience helps?

John: No. No, it

Brad: doesn’t help, or no, you don’t reflect?

John: I think reflection is like a very high state. I would call it more ruminating and grinding away and beating myself up. And I don’t find that to be productive, even though I do it. So I think I’m more apt to try to figure out, like, what was going on or what I want to do differently. Although I’ve been playing with this one too, because I’ve been seeing this in myself as a client with my coach, and I’ve seen it with other clients as well, which is sometimes we get so hooked on trying to figure out what happened and why and what was the cause. So personal example, like I’m taking some medicine right now that doesn’t make me feel good, and I was having an off day, and I went down this whole path of trying to figure out, is it because of the circumstances in my life or is it because of this medicine that I don’t feel good? I was like, well, so what?

Brad: Just don’t feel good.

John: I don’t feel— right, which is again, you You start to say these things out loud with— and then the beauty of a coach is my coach just cut in and he’s like, okay, so you don’t feel good. Like, what do you want to do to change the situation? Like, who cares? Okay, is it the medicine? Well, like, maybe pursue different medicine or whatever. Or— but, but like, being so focused on like, well, is it me or is it something else? It’s like, I don’t know, it’s just not working. So what are the options I could pursue to make it better? So to bring it back to Replaying conversations. Yeah, I totally replay the— I go there. I don’t usually find it very helpful. It’s more of who would I want to be differently next time, or what would I want to choose differently? And maybe I don’t want to be in conversation with this person or this group or this team or this— Or maybe I need to check in with myself before this particular meeting and decide, can I bring my whole self to this meeting today? Or am I just not in a good place to deal with what normally happens here? And so I’m going to choose not to go, not to just say, you know what, I can’t come today, I won’t be there. And then in other moments to say, well, I’m not bringing my best game, but who do I want to be in this situation? And let’s strive for that to get to a different outcome than I had last time. I don’t know. Does that—

Brad: Yeah, that lands with me. I ask myself 2 questions. which is, what did I want to happen in that conversation? So if I find myself replaying because something’s stuck, what did I want to happen and how did I get in my way? Hmm. And actually, I find that helpful rather than replaying the conversation and then imagining what I could have said, what I should have said, what I would have said. Because when I’m under pressure next time, I can’t recall those. No,

John: no, no, no. So there’s no

Brad: mileage in that for me. And I spent my teens doing that, and I was a very miserable, angry teenager who listened to, you know, In the Doghouse tapes a lot when I wanted to be all reflective and moody. No, those 2 questions helped me so much. What did I want to happen? So can I envision it? Do I have that clarity of the purpose? And then how was I getting in my way? Own my role in that conversation. Because more often than not, when it doesn’t go my way— and it’s funny how we say that, right? Oh, the conversation didn’t go my way. What was— why did it have to go your way?

John: How about our way?

Brad: Yeah, yeah. The nuance of communication, how we talk to ourselves, how we talk to others. And this has fascinated me. Actually for years, the language that we use. And I remember studying back in university in the early days of psychology, in my first year, we looked at language acquisition. And Noam Chomsky, a linguistic psychologist, talked about the formative years, like age 18 months to 5, when we actually acquire most of the language we will need in order to function in society. And his argument and theories espouse around this idea that actually the most effective communicators in the world are children, unfiltered. In fact, the less language that they have, the more precise they are about their need. Mothers and fathers alike will be able to tell The nuance of a cry from their baby as to whether it’s wind, a changed nappy, hunger, tiredness. No words needed. The sound of the cry is enough. And as we get older and we get more language and more self-conscious, so, so we become overly reliant on words, we actually become less good at communicating.

John: And what I’m hearing in there too is taking things personally. When a child wants an ice cream and they don’t get it, they’re not taking it personally like, oh, I must be a bad person, or I must— just like, look, like, I want the ice cream, can I have the ice cream? Just give me the ice

Brad: cream. Yeah, yeah.

John: So what do you find gets in your way the most?

Brad: Oh, totally my ego. Yeah, so it’s about you. Oh, completely. Yeah, yeah, no, most of the time the answer is the same. Uh, what was getting in your way there, Brad? Uh, the need to be right. Um, that’s one that pops up a lot. Um, and because I have a cognitive distortion of always being right, that’s difficult to overcome.

John: What does that mean, a cognitive distortion of always being right?

Brad: So We have— we all have like a board of directors in our head.

John: Yes.

Brad: Creates a map of the world of how we see things. Some people have one that’s like they’re powerless, some is, you know, black and white thinkers, some are maximizers, minimizers, blamers. I’m a labeler. I like labeling people. I labeled a few people on the motorway the other day when they were driving, um, and I’m always right, so of course my labels are always right. I mean, that’s a great combination.

John: How efficient!

Brad: Really, right? So when I’m in a discussion, when it’s not going my way, I’m not getting what I want, that’s how I get in my way. It’s, it’s purely my need to be right. So I’m forcing an issue, or I’m coming back at someone, and I stop hearing what they’re saying because what they’re not saying is, yes, Brad, you’re right. And if you want the psychology of it, you know, this goes back to my mum telling me I’m, I’m a genius, I’m a special child, and I’m very, very clever. when I was 4 years old. I mean, it probably goes right back to then. As an adult, it’s really ugly. And although I have an 8-year-old child inside me who I need to nurture, he doesn’t need to come out in every conversation. And I’m willing to put that out there and be as vulnerable as it needs to be for—

John: I love it.

Brad: All of the 5 listeners that might, might check this out. I want to give a shout out to Michael Doyle because I’m really interested to see what his, uh, reflections will be on this conversation. So yeah, so the thing that gets in my way the most is my ego. Um, and a book I read last year, just to take us back a podcast, Ryan Holiday’s Ego Is the Enemy, it resonated so much because I think if most of us took an honest look, an honest reflection where there was no boundaries or come back on what we said about ourselves, we would all probably admit that when we take conversations down the wrong path, it’s because of our ego. And that’s the cognitive distortion, right? It’s, it’s a distortion of how I see the world and how I need to see the world, and therefore everything maps against it. And so then I start labeling So the, the, the first distortion is always right. The next distortion is I label. And then my next distortion, my third one, is I minimize. So it’s not going my way, I start to label because they’re wrong and I’m right, and then I can’t be bothered anymore, so I just minimize it and say, right, fine, forget it, don’t worry, move on. And I move forward. And those Again, it goes back to this nuanced communication. Unless I’m walking around with a little kind of poster on me saying, at the moment I’m displaying minimization, leave me for 20 minutes and I will be fine, I will come back and I’ll be alright. I think that those 2 questions of, you know, what did I want and how am I getting in my way allows me to acknowledge when that 8-year-old boy comes out to play when he doesn’t need to? Hmm. What do you find, uh, gets in the way when you’re in those conversations?

John: Yeah, for me, I would say it’s, it’s not listening to that inner intuition, that inner inner child. But here, what’s so interesting, on my desk I have this picture. There’s 4-year-old John.

Brad: Excellent.

John: I recently did this, um, this really fascinating course called Positive Intelligence.

Brad: Alright.

John: And one of the exercises was to find an old picture of yourself, an old picture when you’re a child, and to like reflect on this picture. And so I don’t know, for the last 4 months or so, I’ve had this picture, this 4-year-old picture of myself on my desk. It’s right underneath the little lamp that’s kind of giving me light right now. And it’s amazing how informing it can be. And to tie this into some of your other things, it’s a beautiful way of removing judgment and labeling on other people. So the encouragement is not only checking in with the 4-year-old version of yourself, that’s like the most purest innocent essence of you that’s still there.

Brad: Yeah.

John: But seeing that child in other people, and I cannot tell you how powerful it is, particularly people that really bug you, particularly people that you’re just like, I cannot love that person, I just can’t go there. Man, when you just make it up, it’s like, what do I think this person— what would I think— what I think Brad looked like when he was 4? And, you know, we can all kind of do that, I think. And it changes everything. If I see— if I’m really mad at you or I like can’t get along with you, but I see you as this little 4-year-old, would I say and treat you the way I want to treat you based on how mad I am and frustrated with you and what a jerk I think you are? No. No, it changes everything. So yeah, I was having a conversation with someone recently. I was having a hard time connecting and having compassion. And I just imagined them as a 4-year-old and it— something like sunk and shifted in the conversation in a profound way that I don’t think would have otherwise. So I’m taking this a completely different direction now. But yeah.

Brad: No, but again, it’s, it’s It’s how we communicate. It goes— it, for me, it links into this, you know, the nuanced communication. You’re using visualization techniques to shift your patterns. I know that when I do not connect with somebody, I visualize them with a great big red clown’s nose, and I instantly smile. This instantly relaxes me. Blood pressure goes down, heart rate goes down, amygdala stops triggering. Um, my distortions about being right or being correct or all those things disappear. And I, I’m not frightened of clowns. I love a good clown. Um, and, uh, and I just find myself smiling at them. And as soon as that happens, as soon as that smile cracks my face, I’m kind of back in play. I’m back in the world of being able to communicate, have compassion, show empathy. And all those things that are required to build a relationship, even with somebody who you might not, um, on the surface connect with. And as you say, we were all 4-year-old kids.

John: Yes, or be in relationship.

Brad: Yeah, and there’s something, you know, so innocent about it that I think there’s something really quite lovely as almost like a coping mechanism. If there are people who are listening who are like, you know, how do I cope with this person? How do I deal with them? Actually Look at them and imagine them as a 4-year-old. Tap into that creative vortex in your brain that builds pictures and images and just say, wow, yeah, yeah, cool, that’s so cute. And you’ll, you’ll smile. And if you don’t, then you just need to find a really good therapist and do some work on yourself.

John: Well, and I would also encourage to find a picture of yourself.

Brad: Yeah,

John: a 4-year-old picture of yourself to do some reflection and some— I don’t know, it sounds weird, but I don’t— I’m just like, when I look at this picture, I just love this little kid, and it’s me. It’s just like, not in a narcissistic way, but just there’s something—

Brad: You should put it up on the camera again so we can just reflect on

John: I mean, how could you

Brad: not like this one? John, look at that. You look angelic.

John: The shirt, it’s, it’s like the outfit is kind of hilarious. I don’t know what it is, but yeah.

Brad: I think it’s, uh, it’s interesting as well, isn’t it? Because people, sometimes we’re maybe almost a little bit frightened to go down that route, you know.

John: Oh yeah.

Brad: Because it’s, it’s a different person. I’m mature, I’m responsible, I’m this, I’m that. Um, but I remember when I had my own therapeutic practice, my guy used to say to me, um, Brad, just describe the kid inside you that’s, that’s trying to get out. And I remember the first time he asked me, John, I didn’t really, didn’t really know what he meant. Like, what do you mean the child? Well, how old is he? Huh? How old is the little boy trying to— like, look at how you’re behaving right now, and how old were you when you started behaving like that? And sometimes you see it, right? I, I remember seeing even my partner once, and they were so frustrated, and not with me, but actually with, you know, their daughter, and she’s banging her foot on the floor. And it’s like, you know, I wanted to say, how old are you right now? I’m 12 and I’m not getting my way. And, and it’s that, I think. So there’s some real— there’s some real meaning, I think, and real purpose in, in that reflection. I would absolutely recommend that you do that, that people do grab a picture before they went to primary school and have a look and see, one, are they still in touch with that young child? Because that child had dreams and aspirations and imagination beyond anything that we probably have now with the restricted life we sometimes give ourselves. And I sometimes wonder, you know, when I look back when I was that age, what did I want to be? And I wanted to be an astronaut. And how did I go from being an astronaut to what I’m doing today? What happened along the route that took me— I mean, a lack of skill in, uh, probably a lot of stuff got in the way, and I’m sure there comes a point when a lack of skill does get in the way for dreams. But I, I think there’s something really powerful in, in doing that. Have you shown other people in your family that picture, and do you, do you get their view on it?

John: No, I mean, I did have a conversation with my mom to be like, what’s this history behind this picture? Like, where— what was going on? And she couldn’t quite remember. She thought she remembered where it was taken, and she happened to write the date on the back. So like, I know very explicitly how old I am. What also— it’s funny, and I think this comes into today’s conversation, like, when I look at this picture I see this little mischievous, like, kind of playful little guy.

Brad: Right.

John: And so I think as a result of this thing for 3 or 4 months ago, like, that became part of my— I have— I call— they’re called I Am statements, and I reflect on them each morning. And so that kind of snuck into— in other words, it’s a way of just declaring, like, this is who I am, not who I want to be. Like, this is me. It’s a little bit aspirational, but it’s mostly like just coming back to this is who I am. And so I added to it was like, I am mischievous and fun. And I feel like that’s kind of come into our conversation. Like, I’m just— there’s a little mischievous, fun part of me, even though, you know, I’m this grown-up professional. But again, when it comes out, it’s the most John-ness. Like, it’s, it’s me.

Brad: And I think if we learn to embrace that side of us, we become a) more authentic, b) like ourselves much more, and c) far more authentic with our word because we can signpost what we’re trying to say by recognizing maybe even which part of us is saying it. I know I have to sometimes be corporate, you know, when I was talking to clients, but I’ve also learned in, in my workshops and in coaching to be really cheeky. In fact, you know, I, I don’t have the picture there, but I’ll share my, my screensaver that reminds me. So it’s not unlike, uh, you, um, but, um, I don’t know if you can see that, but there’s a— I’ll see if I can put it up while we’re talking. I feel as though being in touch with that part of me allows me to be totally true to myself. And it’s, you know, in therapy we talk about honoring ourselves, and I think that’s kind of what we’re talking about here. And it links straight back to being authentic with the word, because if you’re not authentic with your word, uh, you can’t be trusted, because it goes back to your reliability piece of earlier. And I think that’s Really important,

John: which creates dissonance. You mentioned that word earlier. Yeah, when we— and they’re like deposits into a bank account. It’s like, well, I didn’t quite deliver on this, and I didn’t quite do this, and I said I would do this, but it kind of did and I kind of didn’t. And it just builds dissonance as to like, who is this really? How much can we count on you?

Brad: Let me see if this comes up.

John: Oh, check him out!

Brad: I love it. That’s me, 7 years old. That is who is desperately clamoring out, digging a hole for water in the sand on a beach in Italy. And that’s, that’s the child I have to nurture. Um, happy-go-lucky, no overthinking, ridiculously shaped hair. Um, but look at that smile, just, just unbridled happiness.

John: And that,

Brad: that’s who I have to look after. So when I’m coaching, this is the child that comes out. And actually a rather flattering potbelly, I think, when I look a little bit—

John: I didn’t even notice.

Brad: Looking a little bit closer, I’m thinking, yeah, that’s quite a good one. I, I could have been drinking pints of beer there with that picture. Yeah, and I, and I think, you know, maybe we could even encourage people to have some fun with it because there’s a vulnerability to that as well, right? When you look at a picture of yourself, because of course we’ve aged, we’ve got things that worry or concern us, you know, our life is full of responsibility. And actually seeing a picture of yourself when none of that existed, that’s—

John: It’s a dream! It’s just freeing. It’s just— there’s just—

Brad: I want to rewind a little bit. When, when you were saying earlier about, you know, how at the beginning of the conversation when we were talking language, I would frame something and actually you had an opposing view. I wonder if there’s something in that. Is it worth every time we think we feel something or know something flipping it over And seeing if maybe the opposite is true.

John: Probably, but unless, unless it becomes annoying. In other words, I think conversations like this that are recorded in particular are more interesting when the people don’t necessarily agree. I’m not disagreeing with you on purpose, but, you know, we’ve all had those meetings with that person that never agrees with anything. So I think it could You don’t want to be that person either. So, I mean,

Brad: yeah, because every time they speak, it’s, it’s like, it’s like, oh, there goes

John: John again. Everyone agrees that the sky is blue, but John’s going to come up with a reason that it’s actually brown. Here we go.

Brad: Yeah, exactly. And when it’s like any other business, no, we’re all done. Oh, John. Yes, go on then, John. What have you got for us? And John’s going to take us down a My daughter would always say, don’t want to go down that rabbit hole. When you coach and you listen, you, you mentioned before about you’re listening and observing the nuance in other people’s conversation. How do you reflect that back to them to kind of help them audit themselves? Because it’s a skill that coaches have, isn’t it, right, to listen for that nuance. But how do you reflect it back to others so that they can see what they’re saying or hear what they’re saying and it will sound different when they hear it?

John: I think the best way to do it is to ask for permission, although sometimes I think that permission is kind of contrived. Like, like, have you— I’ve never had anyone say no, you know. Brad, could I tell you something that might be hard to hear? Like, are you gonna be like, no, you know what, John? Not today.

Brad: I’m feeling,

John: you know, I paid you a lot of money for this coaching session, but yeah, I really don’t want to hear it. Like, that doesn’t usually happen. So it’s— so for some reason, I’m really sensitive to that, that it can be a little contrived, but I also think it’s a useful speed bump to just say, can I, you know, can I tell you something might be hard to hear, or Can I tell you what I’m seeing over here? Or— Yeah. So that can be a place to start. Sometimes, though, it’s— I mean, sometimes it’s later. So recently I was at a situation where someone was sharing. It didn’t hit me until later, but we were talking about a vaccine for COVID. And this ties back to the whole lockdown idea. And, and it was the idea of when there’s a vaccine, then we can just get on with our lives and go back to normal. And it kind of just floated past me. But then it was the next day where I was like, wait a minute, that’s not how I want to live.

Brad: Right.

John: I’m living my best life in this moment right now. Would everyone else judge it as the best life? I don’t know. It doesn’t matter. Like, but, but for me, if I can keep coming back to this place of I’m living my best life right now in this moment. I’m having this conversation with you. That’s it. 10 minutes from now might be something else. I don’t know. But in this moment, this is it. So, so that’s an example where it wasn’t until later, it had just been kind of, I think, in my subconscious or something where I was like, wait a minute, I don’t agree with that. Like, now what would I have said to that person in that moment? I don’t know. It wasn’t a coaching conversation. So I think in a coaching conversation, there’s If a coaching conversation is designed well, and I think this is important, designing that in at the beginning. Hey Brad, in our coaching relationship, do I have permission to tell you the brutal honest truth when I see it and when I think it? And will you tell me if it doesn’t land or if it’s wrong? In other words, creating agreements.

Brad: Yeah.

John: I call it designing the alliance, but the best way to do it is just creating a very, And some people think it’s overly pedantic. I find it works way better to like create all these agreements, and then if there’s a problem, it’s like, okay, well, you know, that hurt my feelings, or you went too far, I’m sorry. And you know, what agreements, what new agreements do we need to make?

Brad: For me, that’s contracting.

John: Yeah,

Brad: I know I hear myself sometimes saying things like John, can I be bold?

John: Sure.

Brad: And you’re right, people never say, Brad, I’d rather you weren’t. John, I’d like to adopt the stance of radical candor with you. Brad, could you dress it up a little bit? Yeah, sure. And actually, sometimes, you know, even when I’m giving feedback— and, and I used to coach women’s football And, um, whenever I had feedback as the coach to, to give them, I used to ask permission. But I used to say, hey, listen, um, John, uh, I’ve got some feedback for you. Do you want it now or after the game?

John: Hmm.

Brad: Of course, they’re trying to impress the coach, so, you know, it’s halftime, they’re like, yeah, no, Brad, now, gaffer. And then I would ask a secondary question, do you want me to dress it up? or say it straight? Hmm. And so not only did they give me permission to give the feedback now, they gave me permission to say it straight. And actually, if they said dress it up, I’d still say it straight because they don’t know what straight or dressed up is, right? So if I then said it straight and they’re like, whoa, Brad, I said dress it up, I’m like, that was, Danny, that was. Come on, get with the program. And that’s how my dad used to give me feedback. And so I learned that from the strangest place. I learned it from my father.

John: Wow.

Brad: He used to give me feedback after football, which was always, you know, I’ve got some feedback for you. Do you want it now or at the end of the game? And it was always now. And then it was, do you want me to like sprinkle it with sugar dust, or do you want me to say it like Mum would?

John: But that’s beautiful because I can see there are some days, there are some days where it’s like, yeah, just hit me over the head with a hammer, I don’t care. And there’s other days where, you know, maybe I’m a little more fragile. So I like that. I’m going to steal that one.

Brad: Yeah,

John: I like that.

Brad: Dress it up or say it straight. Go.

John: And I want to insert, sneak something in here that, that maybe came out at the beginning when we were talking about being unfiltered and all those things. I believe we have an intuition and we listen to it. But what I also believe is that our interpretation of our intuition is not always right. So I may have an intuitive, like, I really need to hit you over the head with a hammer. But I might be totally wrong.

Brad: Yeah.

John: And in that being wrong, it might get us to where we really want to get to. And I have seen that happen where maybe I come on too strong. I’m like, I’m really getting a sense that this— and the person is like, no. You couldn’t be further wrong. Like, you couldn’t be more wrong. I’m like, okay, well, what’s right then? Actually, it’s this thing over here. And we would have never gotten over there if I hadn’t thrown out this completely wrong thing. Maybe this is in the Four Agreements too, but the whole idea of just being unattached. Now, if I get hooked in that moment of like, no, this is how you really are. And this is what’s really going on. Then I’m getting defensive. I’m getting hooked. I’m attached. But if I can just be like, okay, well, that’s kind of what I thought. I still kind of think that, but whatever. You get to decide who you are and what’s really going on in there. I can’t.

Brad: Yeah.

John: You’re the best judge of that. And if it’s still there, it’ll come up again. No big deal. But yeah, that— I guess what I’m wanting to really advocate is being unattached and let it be wrong. Like, it’s— so I interpreted my intuition wrong. Big deal.

Brad: But it’s having the courage to service that intuition and let it come out in order to be wrong, to help someone else move forward with what’s right. And that is powerful.

John: Yes, and it might make them mad too. Like, they might be upset or offended or whatever. But again, like,

Brad: get them to pay upfront. I mean, that’s, that’s the bottom line. John, it feels like we’ve come full circle with the new arts of communication. Um, that was, uh, fabulous. I, I laughed for the last 40 minutes. Um, so

John: when are you gonna unlock us? When will lockdown be over? Like, when are we gonna have the Freedom Podcast?

Brad: Oh, do you know what? That’s so cool that you’ve come up with that, because I was chatting with a couple of people the other day thinking, what am I going to rename it? Like, the recovery session sounds a little bit like a group I might go to every week with a sponsor. Yeah, that I’m not sure resonates with people, but I’m gonna write that down. So you took out sugarcoated or say it straight, and I’m taking out the freedom sessions. Although that reminds me of the movie Independence—

John: Independence Day?

Brad: No, Armageddon, isn’t it? The name of the 2 spaceships that go up to strike out the meteor are Freedom and Independence.

John: What I think could be interesting to play with is Were we in a real lockdown? Yes. Yes and no. What I would want to play with is like, even if we are physically locked down, if that’s even true, do we have to be up here?

Brad: Uh, yeah, and of course, uh,

John: no. That’s this— I just ruined the next episode. But yeah,

Brad: I mean, you just circumvented doing it, so we’ll just go straight to Straight to publish that one. Do you have to be locked down up here? No. Next question. John Poelstra, thank you so much for engaging, and I have no doubt that, well, when we stop recording, we’ll put another date in for episode 4 of you and me clowning around talking about topics that we can try and find ways of disagreeing with just to have fun.

John: Yeah, and hopefully some more disagreeable— so look, one of the— just real quick, that thing about books, I think there were some disagreeable comments in our last one. So again, disagreement is awesome. Like, let’s have a conversation. Let’s see where we can go.

Brad: I think I’m thinking of a new book called The Four Disagreements. I might just try and write that during lockdown. When I don’t want to write a book.

John: Thanks for listening to The John Poelstra Show. Notes, links, and all that other good stuff for this episode are at johnpoelstra.com/podcast. Send your questions, ideas, or a simple hello Go to REDACTED. Want to stay up to date on new episodes and receive notifications of upcoming events? Register your email address at johnpoelstra.com/updates.