---
title: "92: Understanding and Using Archetypes"
id: "5546"
type: "post"
slug: "understanding-archetypes-92"
published_at: "2020-04-25T17:28:26+00:00"
modified_at: "2026-11-01T16:28:58+00:00"
url: "https://johnpoelstra.com/understanding-archetypes-92/"
markdown_url: "https://johnpoelstra.com/understanding-archetypes-92.md"
excerpt: "Meg Buzzi, Tina Robinson and I explore archetypes and their usefulness on Massively Useful Thing."
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taxonomy_post_tag:
  - "coaching"
  - "demo"
---

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# [92: Understanding and Using Archetypes](https://johnpoelstra.com/understanding-archetypes-92/)

Meg Buzzi, Tina Robinson and I explore archetypes and their usefulness on Massively Useful Thing.

[https://media.blubrry.com/johnpoelstra/content.blubrry.com/johnpoelstra/JPS092-Understanding-Archetypes.mp3](https://media.blubrry.com/johnpoelstra/content.blubrry.com/johnpoelstra/JPS092-Understanding-Archetypes.mp3)

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## Summary & Links

This conversation with [Meg Buzzi](https://www.linkedin.com/in/megbuzzi/)
 and [Tina Robinson](https://www.linkedin.com/in/tinarobinsonhr/)
 took many fun twists and turns. We started by talking about archetypes and that morphed into personas, tarot, personal [board of directors](https://johnpoelstra.com/inner-critics-crew-032/)
, embodiment, and even a little coaching demo by me.

This rebroadcast is from Meg and Tina’s podcast called [Massively Useful Thing](https://soundcloud.com/user-564397478)
. The three of us met the first class of [Co-Active coach training](https://coactive.com/training/coach-training/)
.

## Credits

- [Hallon](http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Christian_Bjoerklund/Skapmat/christian_bjoerklund_-_skpmat_ep_-_01_-_hallon) by Christian Bjoerklund
- [Cold Funk](http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-free/index.html?isrc=USUAN1100499) by Kevin MacLeod

All songs licensed under [Creative Commons](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)

## Transcript

*This transcript was created automatically and may contain small errors.*

**John:** Today I’m rebroadcasting a conversation I had with Tina Robinson and Meg Buzzi. They have a podcast called Massively Useful Thing, and they had me on as their first guest a few months ago. And so with their permission, I’m rebroadcasting it here. As you can probably tell right off the bat, we have pretty good rapport. They’re both massively hilarious, thought-provoking, and made my coaching training something that I’ll never forget. So we’ll share some stories from that, and hopefully you’ll find this massively useful. I had one, one interview I did where the person was like answering my questions before I asked the questions. Like,

**Tina:** that’s called ESP. That’s not a technology problem. John, you are the inaugural guest on the Massively Useful Thing podcast. So welcome.

**John:** Thank you.

**Tina:** We have been admiring from afar your podcast. I’ve had the privilege of being on it once and it was so much fun to just kibitz, as they say.

**John:** So what do you guys wanna talk about?

**Tina:** Maybe we each tell the story of the exercise where we had to get that label smacked onto us and then we had to wear it.

**Meg:** Oh, that archetype one?

**Tina:** I was innocent child.

**Meg:** I was Baby Bird.

**Tina:** So we had Baby Bird, Innocent Child, and Mad Scientist. So maybe we do our opening story with our alter egos and how those came to be, because I know I named you John, and that’s still how I refer to you.

**Meg:** Actually, I think that would be really fun. Are you, are you comfortable going there, John?

**John:** Totally. I don’t remember much about it, but yeah.

**Tina:** And then—

**Meg:** That might be funny.

**John:** Tina remembers. Tina loves this. Tina’s more in love with this story than I am.

**Tina:** Well, I still call you that. That’s, that’s how I—

**John:** I know.

**Tina:** Yeah, and then, um,

**Meg:** she doesn’t call me baby bird

**Tina:** that you know of. Okay, archetype. Have fun with archetype if that is something that any or all of us have used in our coaching. And what is the value?

**John:** Huge, huge. Yeah, well,

**Meg:** I think we use— yeah, you could use the thing that the story is about.

**Tina:** Yeah, I pretty much— my goal this evening, and I’m not even drunk yet, so this is really good. So, um, my goal is to see how many times I can completely make John crack. So this is gonna be fun. Um,

**John:** Oh, I use it a lot. I’ve used it with— I use it for myself. I use it with clients.

**Tina:** The 3 of us met when we were taking the CTI, or Coaches Training Institute, 5-month coaching program. And one of the exercises in the first weekend, we had to partner with somebody and come up with an archetype, a label that we then had to wear proudly on a sticky on our chest. Meg, do you remember what yours was?

**Meg:** I do remember what it was, yes. Would you like me to share it?

**Tina:** No, I would actually just like you to remember it and keep it to yourself because that’s going to make for a really good podcast.

**Meg:** You’re going to guess it later. You’re going to guess it later like a magic show.

**Tina:** We talked about the concept of archetype as a massively useful thing that we bring into our coaching, this idea of an image, or a reference point that creates some kind of visual picture for you that may allow you to step into a different persona. And when we mentioned that as a potential topic, we all got pretty excited because we use it both personally and professionally.

**Meg:** Yeah. Well, so I pulled up a definition, and what’s interesting about archetype is that there are just a lot of layers to it. So, some people refer to archetypes as sort of these inherited symbols across generations, these inherited symbols of human experience. What would be an archetype everybody knows, Tina?

**Tina:** The warrior, the hermit.

**Meg:** Oh, yeah, that’s a great one.

**Tina:** The king.

**Meg:** You see a lot of them in the tarot. You see a lot of them in literature. You see them in film. So, like, part of the hero’s journey is filled with the archetypes of, like, the people you meet along the way.

**Tina:** Well, and Darth Vader represents a certain archetype. The innocent hero, Luke Skywalker. Star Wars is full of archetypes.

**John:** Now, do you ever use archetypes? Do you ever think of archetypes as individual people? So, I’ve done that with clients where I’ll be like, who’s someone you admire? What is it that you admire about that person? And then that person— maybe I’m using— I don’t know if this is the right way to use the term, but that person becomes kind of an archetype. Oprah, she represents a certain thing to this person. I can’t

**Meg:** remember her name. It’s like a motif. She actually is like representing a lot of things that people like about her. So maybe it’s like honesty or ambition or forthrightness or, you know, a person who follows their values. So like, there’s just— it’s good baggage, right? It’s like a collection of characteristics. So it’s like a really deep, rich character.

**John:** And then the way I’ve used this with clients is we have this like board. So we have Oprah, we have a Navy SEAL, we have a lion. Like, it can be just kind of like anything. But then in working with certain people, and I have kind of my own little crew, it’s like, which person do I need to depend on today for this particular situation? Or who would I need to be in this situation, this challenging thing that I’m up against? And then—

**Meg:** Well, it’s kind of like you’re selecting a tool. for use in that situation. A

**John:** massively useful thing.

**Meg:** A mask or, you know, a persona that you can step into.

**John:** Right.

**Tina:** And we actually featured personal board of directors as a massively useful thing on a previous podcast. So this idea of people that you aspire to engage with or even fictional characters that represent certain qualities that you would like to bring in. I think board of directors, I see it as perhaps containing different archetypes. Yes. But I think archetype is more of a singular. So, I’ve been reading tarot cards, as you both know, for a while now. And one of the reasons that tarot works as a tool is that it is all archetypes. People who have never read cards before, and I bring tarot into the workplace, I’ll do it in a team setting. I’ll have everybody choose a card and just describe what they see. And if they see a king seated on a throne, they will People just start talking about what the archetype of a king on a throne means. That it might mean power, it means stability, it means authority, it means ownership of your own strength, whatever that is. And that’s all very true. And I find it remarkable and very amazing that people who’ve never read cards before, when I tell them that they just read tarot, they— their eyes light up because they, they think it’s a magical language. And really it’s just about reading archetypes that we all recognize.

**Meg:** I think you draw 2 pretty important details. One is that archetypes can be fictional or real. They can be from literature, or they can be something like we said at the beginning, with baby bird or mad scientist. They could be mutually agreed-upon symbols, or they could be symbols that are very personally defined. But the idea is that the usefulness of it is that it carries so much. There’s so much unpacking you can do. So, it’s like this super compact symbol that has all this depth to it allows for numerous people to look at it and feel similar ways about it, and at the same time each have their own individual definition of what it means and how it’s useful.

**Tina:** I love that point that yes, it’s a universal symbol, and yes, we will all— we may have similar perspectives on it, but they’re going to be slightly nuanced. So when I think of mad scientist, I go directly to Doc from Back to the Future, but that’s because I’m of an age where I grew up with Back to the Future and I’ve seen it a bazillion times, and whereas somebody who has never seen Back to the Future may think of mad scientist and think of it very differently. Of course, now I just think of John.

**Meg:** John, your hair is so much better than that. It’s okay.

**Tina:** You have good hair, John.

**Meg:** John, what does this bring up for you? I

**John:** guess I’m hearing archetype is more of— it potentially has more depth, and it’s almost like it’s a role. So if you’re a king, you have a role as the king, but then you’re gonna bring— everyone’s gonna bring a slightly different meaning to, like, what what that is. Where if you say Oprah, well, different people are going to bring— like I said, hey, Oprah is a hero of mine, and it’s a hero of yours. There’s probably different things about Oprah that resonate for me that— Right. So—

**Meg:** That’s a good thing. I mean, what’s so cool about it is that we can both have, like, a shared understanding and then our own individual understanding. I think just one last thing to say about Board of Directors. I think the Board of Directors is the umbrella organization, and all the archetypes sit on the Board of Directors. So, if Oprah’s on your board of directors, she’s one of the archetypes on there. So, your board are all these symbols, because at the point where you put somebody on your board, say it’s like Lee Iacocca, or Bill Gates, or Sally Ride, anybody, just by putting them on there, you’re sort of elevating them to this sort of symbolic chair, right? They’re not people anymore. They’re bigger than that.

**John:** Yeah, and they’re filling a role.

**Meg:** Yeah.

**Tina:** And I just want to point out that the 3 that Meg chose are So Generation X. So we had Sally Ride, we had Lee Iacocca, and what was your third? Bill

**John:** Gates. Bill Gates.

**Tina:** I don’t

**Meg:** know why he came to mind— my mind.

**Tina:** I love it. I, I absolutely love it. We are, we are owning our 40s.

**Meg:** Very old. Yeah. Okay. Alright.

**Tina:** John, you were describing earlier that you use archetypes quite often with the clients that you coach. So what would be an easy way to maybe role-play that with one of us, how you might bring archetype into a conversation and encourage somebody to think about archetype?

**John:** Well, I guess I could walk you through the way, like, I got one of them, which actually influences the way I coach. And I was working with, I was working with a coach. And somehow we got on to, like, who’s someone that you really respect or look up to or whatever? And I picked Jocko Willink, who is this Navy SEAL guy that has a book called Extreme Ownership. And so my coach had me— she’s like, okay, great. How would Jocko stand? So I stood up in kind of this, you know, A-frame, like, I can take on anything, I can complete any type of mission. And then we kind of like felt into the energy of like, what does it feel like to be Jocko? I guess the first is, if you’re gonna break this down into steps, it’s like, think of someone that you admire, then try to embody that person. So sit like them, stand like them, be like them, to embody them in a certain way. And then it was like, so if you were to attack this project in front of you today, like, how would you do it like Jocko?

**Tina:** Oh, good.

**John:** And I was like, oh, well, I think I would stand at my desk.

**Meg:** And then I would eat its face off. Sorry.

**John:** And then, and then she was like, well, and then, but And I was like, yeah, but I couldn’t do that because it’d be too embarrassing. She’s like, what do you mean? I was like, well, I’m at this coworking space and my desk is this upside-down turquoise rubber tub with a tabletop on top of it. Like, that was my standing desk. That is so—

**Tina:** hold on, that is so Portland. Can we just have a Portland moment here that your shared workspace has plastic tubs?

**John:** No, no, that was mine. I brought that from Boston.

**Tina:** Okay.

**Meg:** You brought a tub all the way across country. Alright, that’s, that’s for another episode.

**John:** Yeah, but it was— so it was the whole— and then we of course got into a whole thing of like, well, who cares what other people think? And that was all. But so what that got me— what got— what that got me to was like, wow, when I’m standing up and I’m in this A-frame stance, I have all kinds of power and clarity and a lot more energy. And I started coaching standing up and it changed everything. In fact, Any phone call that I do, I’m normally standing up. And I can’t tell you the number of times that people have said, you have such great energy. I was like, well, yeah, ’cause I’m not slouched in a chair. I’m standing up and I’m moving around and I’m fully mobile. So, the long and short there, I don’t know, is pick a person, embody them, what would they do, and then make stuff up. You know, how would they stand? What would they be?

**Meg:** Yeah, let’s do it.

**Tina:** John, are you game for coaching Meg?

**Meg:** Don’t you love how she volunteered me? No, I volunteered ahead of time.

**John:** Oh, you did? I didn’t know that. I didn’t know I was coached.

**Meg:** I’m in complete control.

**Tina:** It’s called voluntelling.

**Meg:** Spoken like a true HR executive. I have to think of something I want to be coached about. Okay, I got one.

**Tina:** Coach John is about to coach Meg.

**John:** It’s that little, that little low voiceover. And now, okay, tell me about your situation, Meg.

**Meg:** Okay, my situation. I have a whole slew of nonprofits that I coach. So I primarily— my practice at this point is primarily team coaching and organizational coaching. So I do less one-on-one than I expected to at this point, but I really enjoy doing group coaching. One of the things, though, that is true of group coaching is that there is this other level of group dynamics that I have to pay attention to when I’m coaching. So there’s what the group is talking about, and then there’s the meta of the group, right? So there’s all the dynamics underneath, and sometimes I’m privy to that information, but you know, there’s always going to be some percentage of the information that’s sort of hidden from view that you’re kind of experiencing when you’re trying to take a team into like a strategic planning process or a budgeting process, or even just like a culture check-in. And they’re wonderful, they do a lot of mission-driven work. I’m really noticing that there’s a lot of Bullying that goes on in the organizations. And sometimes I notice myself shrinking back from saying the hard thing. Okay.

**John:** So you mentioned bullying. You mentioned yourself pulling back. Who’s someone in the nonprofit world that you respect? Like, you don’t have to know them, but you’re just like, oh!

**Meg:** Oh man! I just— the first person I thought of was Michelle Obama.

**John:** And what’s the essence of Michelle Obama?

**Tina:** She’s my best friend.

**Meg:** Queen. She is a queen. She is regal, ethical. She is radically accountable, fearless.

**John:** So, what would she be like in the midst of some of this bullying?

**Meg:** I feel like she would always come up with some, like, amazing quip that just, like, incisively, you know, cut right to the heart of, like, whatever crazy behavior was going on. And it would just, like, somehow shred it open for everyone to see. So, that’s a lot of pressure.

**John:** No, because what’s so funny is you’re saying that, I’m like, yeah, I can totally see you doing that. Like, that wouldn’t surprise me in the least.

**Meg:** So, there— oh, thank you. Well, so there’s this piece about speaking truth to power. And I think what might get in the way for me is also this piece around etiquette. So, Michelle Obama is so elegant and well-mannered. Like, she doesn’t get ruffled, and, and yet she can still say the really hard things. So it’s like, how do you— how do you cut to the quick but still be polite? Maybe that’s why I shrink back.

**John:** And is there a way that you could— like, if you were to embody Michelle Obama, like, right, what would that be?

**Meg:** Okay, well, I’d be standing up and I’d be like a foot taller.

**Tina:** Yeah, because she’s really tall.

**John:** And Meg’s standing up right now, by the way.

**Meg:** I am. I’m standing up right now.

**Tina:** Are you gonna put on—

**Meg:** I’m gonna crouch down the way she has to crouch down because she’s not even on the same plane as everybody else. She’s just like up in the awesome clouds.

**Tina:** Are you gonna put on a really great pantsuit? Because she has some really killer outfits.

**Meg:** In my mind, I will put on a killer pantsuit. So I feel like she would just have her hands behind her like it’s all cool. She’s, you know, she reminds me of this saying that one of my meditation teachers used to say all the time, which is just, relaxed is power. He used to say that to me all the time. So relaxed is power.

**John:** What would it be like to be relaxed as power in the next meeting that you go into or a situation where you see some of this bullying?

**Meg:** Well, the hit I just got standing here like this is maybe even just my physical presence I don’t have to think of the exact right thing to say because, um, just my energy and my attention are going to communicate enough to the group that I think it, it will begin to police itself.

**John:** Whoa, so you don’t even have to say anything?

**Meg:** Well, because ideally, here’s the thing, and I don’t mean this like pedantically, but ideally the group does police itself because you want them to be radically honest with each other. You know, they’re paying me to be there, but I’d much rather them practice saying the hard thing to one another rather than having me step in and, and save it. Maybe what you’ve just reminded me is that there’s an option to do this without the pressure of knowing the exact right thing to say, and it’s really just focusing on, yeah, the energy of the room, what I want to project.

**Tina:** And that there’s power in just your physical presence.

**John:** Wow. Yeah, and when I’m just like, I just got a shiver. It’s like the, it’s like the power of that embodiment. Like—

**Meg:** Yeah, I think this is a twofer, John, because I actually think the archetype is much more powerful when you add that embodiment piece, which I’m not sure I ever even did with Baby Bird, like back in our courses. But I think you’re bringing just a really important layer to this, which is that the embodiment is the thing that kind of makes it even more real.

**John:** Well, and I love that you went there because so often people are like, oh, like, I got to get out of my chair? Like, I have to move my body? You just did it naturally. So to anyone else out there that’s listening, that’s like, come on, like, really? I have to, like, move my body? Yes, you’ve got to get off your butt. Like, if you really want to get the full power of this, you really can’t do it all in your brain.

**Meg:** We haven’t uploaded our brains to the Borg yet. We still have bodies. So while we still have bodies, we should probably use them.

**John:** Yes. So there’s a third useful thing, your body.

**Meg:** You’d be surprised what can happen from the neck down. Tina, what are your thoughts from the peanut gallery?

**Tina:** So I had the privilege and pleasure to see Michelle Obama speak in September. I was invited to speak at a conference hosted by LinkedIn, and she was the closing speaker. And I was a few rows back because I thought if I sat towards the front, she would see me, we’d make eye contact, and then we’d become best friends.

**Meg:** You are Leslie Knope.

**John:** I love your imagination.

**Meg:** Love it.

**Tina:** And it turns out that Secret Service knew about me.

**John:** Got in the way.

**Tina:** I don’t know how, but they knew about me. And I think I was on a special list of people who were never, ever going to get near her. She was amazing. And there was— she emanated such a combination of power and presence and vulnerability. And I love the idea of embodying it. I have a hard time getting into character. Going there, I remember in class when I had to act out innocent child, I had to think back to, I guess I should skip? What do innocent kids do physically? I guess I will bounce up and down. But there is such power in it. And using your body rather than just your brain takes some practice but can be immensely worth it.

**John:** And I would say too, you don’t have to do it in— like, the extra challenge of that class was that you had to do it in front of everyone. You can just— I mean, nobody saw me being Jocko. I was on the phone and it still had the power. So, it’s not that you have to do it in front of a group. It’s just move your body somewhere and something will probably happen.

**Meg:** That’s going to be like the harder version of the yoga position, you know? So, you know how they’re like, if you want to make this more challenging, just do it in a room full of 100 people looking at you that you just met. I think embodiment in general is a really powerful thing. I mean, whether or not the poses themselves work in this particular way that can be quantified, I think there’s still like Like you’re saying, you’re using your imagination and your body in as many ways as you can to tap into the power of that archetype.

**John:** Yes.

**Tina:** Just to sort of bring us back to a close here, archetypes need intentionality, are very personal to us. Yes, there are universal archetypes, kings and wizards and hermits and towers and things like that. However, archetypes can also be very personal to us. Archetypes are imbued with the meaning that we very intentionally put into them.

**John:** Yeah, I love that. And it’s also— it’s like you can’t but think power and the beauty of an archetype is like you think of the archetype. If you— well, sometimes the trick is like, how can I remember to think of the archetype? But in thinking— but it’s like instant. It comes with so much freight, but in a good way.

**Meg:** Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love the idea of freight, good freight, because it sounds nicer than baggage.

**John:** Yeah.

**Meg:** Which was the only thing I could think of.

**Tina:** I’m Tina Robinson.

**John:** I’m John Poelstra.

**Meg:** I’m Meg Buzzi.

**Tina:** And this is Massively

**Meg:** Useful.

**Tina:** Thing. Who’s your fantasy archetype, John? I mean, favorite movie character, TV character?

**John:** Fletch. Fletch was on there. Chevy Chase. Yeah.

**Tina:** Wait a minute.

**John:** Thanks for listening to The John Poelstra Show. Notes, links, and all that other good stuff for this episode are at johnpoelstra.com/podcast. Send your questions, ideas, or a simple hello to REDACTED. Want to stay up to date on new episodes and receive notifications of upcoming events? Register your email address at johnpoelstra.com/listen. Thanks for listening.

#### John Poelstra

John Poelstra, CPA, coaches directors in finance and software. Certified and trained by the Co-Active Training Institute, he has coached for more than 10 years, with over 520 clients and 3,150 sessions, including people at well-known Fortune 100 companies. In over 30 years of professional experience, he spent 25 in technology and finance: software testing, project management and team leadership at Red Hat and Dell/EMC, and finance as a bank auditor at Wells Fargo and a CPA at Grant Thornton. He hosts The John Poelstra Show podcast and is based in Portland, Oregon.

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April 25, 2020

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